Finding Community in Environmental Justice with Shilpi Chhotray

Posted on by suki
The Babblery
The Babblery
Finding Community in Environmental Justice with Shilpi Chhotray
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Shilpi Chhotray is a storyteller with a purpose. An environmentalist from an early age, her perspective has developed and deepened during her career. Having found inspiration in the social justice movement, she and her production team are now embarking on a project to tell stories about environmental justice through “A People’s Climate.” The new podcast is hosted by The Nation Magazine and features interviews with many of the important figures in the movement.

“I have massive concerns with the conservation movement as it is because they’re leaving the people part out of it and to be extremely explicit, they’re leaving the indigenous people out. You can’t protect land from the people that have stewarded it from generations and expel them from it.”

In our interview, we talk about Shilpi’s work in environmentalism, the great personal changes that led her to cover environmental justice, and the focus on community that keeps her energized to move forward in a difficult time. [Click for transcript]

“Just from an environmental perspective, so much good work has been undone in the environmental justice movement, and also the environmental movement at large. My colleagues have lost jobs, lost years and years of bodies of work that have contributed to incredible research. I think really looking at each other and finding community is so important.”

For more information:

Mentioned in this episode:

Shilpi Chhotray is an internationally-recognized advocate, narrative strategist, and host of A People’s Climate for The Nation. She is also the Co-Founder and President of Counterstream Media, home to a growing slate of media projects focused on climate and environmental justice, narrative power, and frontline storytelling.

Music:

Carbon Neutral Barbecue by Stevia Sphere from the album Pool Water Blue, 2016
Fire Next Time by Mélissa Laveaux from the album Mama Forgot Her Name Was Miracle, 2022

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Promoting Environmental Justice with Shilpi Chhotray

Intro
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[00:00:25] Shilpi Chhotray: I have massive concerns with the conservation movement as it is because they’re leaving the people part out of it and to be extremely explicit, they’re leaving the indigenous people out. I mean, you can’t, protect land from the people that have stewarded it from generations and expel them from it.

[00:00:45] Voiceover: This is your host, Suki Wessling. The environmental movement has gone through some seismic shifts in the 21st century, much of it related to the conflicting opinions on how to mitigate the acceleration of climate change. But today’s guest is part of a very different shift happening in a movement that is adapting not only to climate, but to our changing culture.

[00:01:07] Shilpi Chhotray: My name is Shilpi Chhotray. I’m a narrative strategist, a podcast host, and the co-founder of Counter Stream Media. I started my career in ocean conservation. Kind of came to see that the real crisis isn’t just ecological, it’s about who gets to tell that story. So that’s sort of what brought me to the work at Counter Stream. And I’m also hosting a climate justice podcast called A People’s Climate for the Nation.

[00:01:34] Voiceover: Shilpi introduces herself as a storyteller. So I asked her to start by telling us where she is today. By the time of this release, she will just have launched a new podcast called A People’s Climate. It’s a continuation of what she’s done, but she’s climbing up on a much bigger platform, the Venerable Nation Magazine.

[00:01:52] Shilpi Chhotray: It’s really exciting because of course the Nation was founded something like 1865 by abolitionists. Um, it’s probably the most progressive mainstream Western legacy media outlet out there. And I get to do a series for them on, on climate justice.

[00:02:09] And so this is really timely right now because, as you know, there’s a lot at stake in terms of climate, in terms of democracy and in terms of justice, and this kind of brings everything into the fold with really incredible guests, across the climate justice sort of ecosystem. So there’s a mix of frontline leaders. There’s, folks that are working in policy and advocacy. There’s community organizers. And I even get to chat with, uh, Vivian Sansour, who’s originally from Jerusalem. So really centering Palestine in, in this climate conversation.

[00:02:46] Suki Wessling: Wow. That sounds fascinating and exciting. So, what, what’s the focus of the podcast what are the episodes going to be like?

[00:02:53] Shilpi Chhotray: So our episodes are, um, very sound rich. We put a lot of thought and resources, really, into creating sonic narrative. So what that means is there’s like a lot of archival footage, there’s also a lot of B-roll to really paint an audio experience for the listeners.

[00:03:14] So I’m really, really proud of that. Before this podcast, I had, um, launched and produced and hosted five seasons of People over Plastic, and that was sort of always the theme is just kind of having this audio rich experience, um, that’s going to really compliment the stories of, of what folks are saying. One example I can give is we had a, an incredible conversation with Nick Tilsen, who’s an Oglala, Lakota land defender. He’s the president and CEO of NDN Collective, which is the largest indigenous advocacy group, um, in the country, maybe even the world. And he, I, I sort of found out about his work in 2020 when he was arrested at Mount Rushmore. And I sort of like followed his story since then and I, you know, when we launched this series, I was like, I gotta get Nick on. Um, so he’ll, you’ll hear from him early on in the season. Um, but we have sort of archival footage and sounds of his actual arrest at Mount Rushmore. It was all over the news. Um. It was pretty high profile because the Trump administration at that time was visiting Mount Rushmore for a July 4th celebration.

[00:04:26] And the long story short is Mount Rushmore is on Sacred Lands in the Black Hills. It’s also called “Tȟuŋkášila Šákpe” in South Dakota. It is where Nick’s ancestors, you know, have faced genocide. And now they have the colonizers that led this genocide against his people, um, as a monument. So he was arrested, you know, they were doing nonviolent protests and I heard about his story back then and, um, it was just a truly an honor to hear from him all these years later, what has changed, what hasn’t changed, what is the direction we’re going in, but also pulling the clips from the actual protest and the arrest from that time. Also, he was at the forefront of the Greenpeace deposition against, um, well Energy Transfers, uh, lawsuit against Greenpeace, against the Dakota Access Pipeline. And there’s some footage of, of what happened in that deposition. So again, really kind of taking at This American Life approach, but, uh, more, you know, conversational as well and, and kind of painting that picture for, for the audience.

A People’s Climate with Nick Tilsen
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[00:05:30] Voiceover: Shilpi and her team kindly allowed me to use a bit of her interview with Nick Tilsen, which is amongst the first of the episodes they have started releasing. As you’ll hear, there is subtle sound design in this clip that brings the listener into the moment that Nick narrates.

[00:05:44] Episode outtake: We wanted to do two things on that day, bring the land back movement into the public psyche of people everywhere. And then locally, we wanted to reignite the fight for the Black Hills amongst the younger people, and I think we accomplished both of those things on that day. We’ll take back the stolen land one rock at a time.

[00:06:03] If it’s starting with Mt. Rushmore and it’s not gonna end. It’ll never end. As long as we have breath in our lungs, as long as red blood in our bodies, we’ll keep marching. We will keep shouting. We’ll keep protesting. No. Protecting. This is our land and we’re gonna take it back and there’s nothing they can do about it.

[00:06:30] This is the land of the OTI going and we’re prepared to stand our ground. Today has been a proud day to be Lakota. Today is the day to be down us for three hours, and we did it in a good way. We felt that power from our ancestors. So we’ll do LA cheat each and every one of you.

[00:06:58] They ended up charging me with, this is shocking, but it was burglary and grand theft. The irony is we were literally there protesting the United States government’s illegal taking of the Black Hills. Police are coming in in full force right now, so they are fully equipped again, fully outfitted.

[00:07:18] Hey, where you going? Shields face masks. There was police hitting us with a police shield and we obtained that police shield and we rebranded that police shield. We, we crossed out police and we put land back on it, and we used it to defend ourselves. They were saying that being in possession of a police shield, therefore they were charging for burglary.

[00:07:39] And then they were also saying that in the, the taking of the police shield. That, uh, engaged in simple assault of a police officer, which, you know, anybody knows from the videos that day, the only ones who committed any violence on that day was the police and the National Guard.

Working with a team
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[00:07:54] Episode outtake: What you’re saying

[00:07:54] Voiceover: A People’s Climate is a new project for Shilpi Chhotray, but it’s not a break from her past work.

[00:08:00] Shilpi Chhotray: It’s the same team, which is really special. There’s a lot of trust there. We’re all Oakland based. My executive producer, Mindy Rainmaker, she’s in LA but everyone else is is here. So I started People over Plastic, the first podcast, out of my garage when my son, my first son was eight months old.

[00:08:18] And literally my, the same guys that are doing the sound engineering now, like put up, you know, soundproofing in this garage like four or five years ago. Everyone’s really excited because, you know, after creating something that was so grassroots and such, blood, sweat, and tears, you know, getting, the visibility that we will hopefully get with the Nation is just like such a enormous hats off to everybody on the team and, and their amazing work.

[00:08:46] Voiceover: It was fun for me to talk shop with someone who started podcasting just as most of us do, with an idea of what we wanted to say, but little infrastructure to support us.

[00:08:55] Shilpi Chhotray: We start out like pretty scrappy, you know? And even now we’re like, well, it’d be great if we had video editors and another assistant producer. Like the the need is is immense to do it right. As, as you know. But, it’s also like there’s this demand for, well, like I just said, a, a video editor cause a lot of the research we found as folks like to, to see it and just even maybe have something up on YouTube, even if they’re not watching people the whole time, they wanna listen to it on YouTube. That’s a little bit daunting for me. I don’t know how you feel about video, but I would love to hear your thoughts there.

[00:09:32] Suki Wessling: Well, I will point out that we are using video to talk to each other, but I keep my video turned off. I love, I love to be, I, I don’t know. It’s really interesting. I love video, I love movies. But there’s something about the sort of, for me, the blind conversation where I am in the conversation, they’re in my, even in my headphones.

[00:09:56] It’s so intimate. And it’s interesting because the, that people do, you know, we have a visual culture now, so people, some people really do prefer the visual element, but I find that that gives some you something completely different, which is good too, but it’s very different from just the sound of people talking and focusing on their words.

[00:10:17] Shilpi Chhotray: This has been a big piece of conversation on, on our team, and I don’t necessarily want to be on video. Um, so we’re doing short little sound bites, I guess kind of more for promotion, but it won’t be the whole recorded interview, I hear you though. I like, the, the hearing piece of it and the listening, and also because we have such rich noise scapes, like that part of it is it was really compelling in and of itself.

Why podcasting?
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[00:10:43]

[00:10:43] Voiceover: I’m talking to environmentalist and podcast host Shilpi Chhotray. We’ve been talking about what she’s doing now, but I wanted her to go back to why she left a developing career to go into podcasting in the first place.

[00:10:55] Suki Wessling: So much of the origin story and like honestly, even reflecting right now was a massive pivot in my career. So prior to launching People Over Plastic, the, the earlier podcast, I headed communications for an incredible movement called Break Free From Plastic. And at that point we were like 2,500 groups all around the world.

[00:11:16] Shilpi Chhotray: A lot of my work focused on global South, um, and a lot of media lia zoning and ensuring like frontline folks, organizers um, in the Gulf South of, even of the United States and the global South were uplifted in media and I was just noticing massive gaps in, in what the media was choosing to cover. Um, that was such a foundational experience and I think very fondly of, of my days at Break Free from Plastic.

[00:11:42] I still work with a lot of the same people, um, and I started People Over Plastic right after that role, uh, to get more laser focused in the conversations on plastic pollution, explicitly, because the mainstream media was still hyper, hyper-focused on end of life solutions. So ocean cleanup, recycling, incinerating burning plastics, sending our waste overseas.

[00:12:06] We know that’s not the right the real solution, we need to turn off the tap on the corporations on the production. Well, if you keep going back, you know, further layers and layers and layers, you realize a lot of this starts because of colonization, you know, and capitalism and these are the things people were really afraid to talk about.

[00:12:26] But we got to go there on, on our podcast, People Over Plastic. So that was about five seasons and it’s been an incredible project. There’s academic institutions, law schools that use our podcasts and curriculum. It’s widely shared in movement circles, and it’s really like a grassroots tool at this point.

[00:12:47] As, as you’re getting into the plastic pollution issue, or even if you’ve been in the plastic conversation your whole career, you’re always going to learn something new. Me personally, I was sort of ready after five seasons to branch out to other topics, which we were already doing. You can’t really talk about plastic pollution without talking about other intersectional issues.

[00:13:07] Um, so we kind of evolved our organization. We were People Over Plastic. We had a bunch of other projects, not just the podcast, but it evolved to Counter Stream Media, which is where what, uh, we found each other at as, um, through this umbrella of, of Counter Stream media where People Over Plastic is, is one piece of it.

[00:13:25] But then we do a bunch of other multimedia initiatives.

How being a mother changes perspective
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[00:13:30] Suki Wessling: And you mentioned that you had kids and, and how did having your children, how old are they now?

[00:13:37] Shilpi Chhotray: I have a four and a half year old and an eight and a half month old.

[00:13:42] Suki Wessling: Okay, little ones.

[00:13:44] Shilpi Chhotray: in a thick of it.

[00:13:45] Suki Wessling: Yes. And how did having kids change your perspective on what you were doing for your career?

[00:13:52] Shilpi Chhotray: I mean, it was, it was everything. In fact, Zevi, my son, the one, who was with me in the garage a lot of the times I was recording, I could hear him in the background. It, I mean, it was massively changing in, in a couple different ways. Um, one was purely logistical. When before I had kids, I was that person that was wearing 10 million hats and I was constantly burning myself out and you know, very fulfilled by my career, but not really had the capacity to have any other types of, hobbies and, and really joy in my life and it was, it was pretty detrimental to be operating in that way. I think, you know, I talked to a lot of my activist friends and they’re in similar boats until something really forces them to, and for me it was becoming a mother.

[00:14:44] So very practically speaking, I had to think about, okay, you know, what are the things I’m kind of good at, you know, and what are the things I’m not so good at and where do I think I can make the most impact? And, and for me, you know, I’ve always been a communicator, whether it’s, it’s speaking, writing, the research to do the speaking and writing, you know, it always, you know, kind of came together um, and also the ability to build bridges. So that’s where I wanted to focus. And the other gift that Zevi gave me was when I was on maternity leave, I talked to a lot of other mothers. Um, I just got connected to fo you know, moms in the neighborhood. We would take walks with each other, social distanced walks ’cause it was still COVID and they would be like, well, what do you do?

[00:15:29] And I’m like, well, I work on plastic. And they had no idea that plastic came from oil. They didn’t. Understand the term racial redlining in it, how that kind of played into it. They didn’t understand why just banning the bag wasn’t enough. Um, and so that was a bit of a wake up call because I think when you’re in movement spaces, you’re so hyper fixated on an issue and you just think everybody’s aware of this is what everyone’s listening to, and it really forced me to start thinking about what kind of media people listen to, what they have access to? Are we making things relatable? Um, and just doing my own research there. So yeah, in two ways, you know, that really shaped, I think, my next steps and sort of even where I am now.

[00:16:17] Suki Wessling: Yeah. You know, parenting to me it’s, it’s this really interesting experience because all of a sudden, unless you’re someone who’s part of a social group, all of whom start to have babies at the same time, which happens to a fair number of people. It didn’t happen to me. I didn’t know anyone else who was having kids.

[00:16:36] So everyone that I became friends with after babies were people that I was friends with first because of our kids being the same age. So sort of this really democratizing part of life, isn’t it?

[00:16:53] Shilpi Chhotray: Yeah. It’s so interesting because I was just talking to my husband about this, like some of the people I’ve gotten really close to over the last few years are because of those play dates and like, it’s who your kid wants to play with. It’s not whose parent you want your child to play with, you know?

[00:17:09] And, but those moms and dads have become some of like our most cherished friends over the last couple years and probably not people we would’ve met normally. So it’s, it’s really interesting and they’re not in these spaces, so it’s like kind of fun to pick their brains on, like, is this resonating? You know, if so, why, if not, what can I do differently?

[00:17:31] It just kind of even using them as like a litmus test on some of my messaging. Um, ’cause the rest of my, so social circles are very in the weeds of similar work that I do.

[00:17:42] Suki Wessling: it’s interesting in, in so many professions that happens, that we get into the thing we do and we don’t notice until somehow it intersects with the outside world how the outside world is perceiving us. And I feel like a lot of what’s been happening in the last year has had to do with things like say, the sort of insular way that academia has gone deeply into certain things that they just assumed the rest of America understood. And it’s created this, disconnect between them and the rest of the country. And so, it’s just so important for us to communicate with each other in general.

[00:18:26] Shilpi Chhotray: Yeah. Yeah. I love that you mentioned that as an example, and that’s, very practically, one of the things we do at Counter Stream Media. We just synthesized a, it was like 195 pages of text for NAACP’s disaster relief toolkit. It was such an important resource, especially for Black communities that have been hardest by hurricanes and we wanted to do it on the 20th anniversary of, of Hurricane Katrina, which was a couple weeks ago.

[00:18:57] They asked us to partner with them on synthesizing the toolkit just to make it more accessible and user friendly. And a phase two of this project will be actually going into a more nuanced storytelling piece of it and pulling six stories from Katrina survivors and, and folks that were most impacted, by this hurricane 20 years ago.

[00:19:17] But the toolkit is really, really cool for folks. I think, you know, there are some stuff in there for, um, US on the California coast to consider, and there’s even examples of wildfires. It’s called Power in the Storm. It’s on the NAACP website, but that was like a really cool project to work on and, and just like understanding how to access information like that that can be dense, but super important to get out to, you know, everyday people.

[00:19:46] Voiceover: You are listening to the Babblery’s interview with climate justice activist Shilpi Chhotray. We’ll be right back.

Segment 2: Telling stories that move people
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[00:19:52]

[00:20:18] Voiceover: I’m your host, Suki Wessling. I’m speaking with environmentalist Shilpi Chhotray who has just released a new podcast of People’s Climate through the Nation Magazine. I asked her to go back and talk about what led her to her current interest in the intersection between climate and social justice.

A young environmentalist
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[00:20:35] Shilpi Chhotray: I was always that kid that was obsessed with like animals and insects and trees. Um, I went to Virginia Tech, um, from the East coast to study environmental science and policy. And, through that experience I got a chance to study abroad in Australia, in Cannes at the Great Barrier Reef.

[00:20:58] And this was before everything was, all the corals were bleached. So I really had a chance to, you know, understand the marine ecosystem, from a healthy perspective. You know, there was health and abundance at that time. There was some stuff creeping in, but it wasn’t the catastrophe that we’re seeing these days.

[00:21:16] And I just became completely obsessed with protecting, um, these ecosystems. But there was always this element of people are part of the ecosystem. In fact, I’m just thinking about it now, the, the program I went through was, um, humans and the environment. And so we did a lot of work on the aboriginal tribes that lived around the reefs and, you know, the rainforest and the region.

[00:21:43] And I, I never saw, you know, people and planet as, as separate entities. And I think that was really foundational to the counter narrative to a lot of corporate and capitalistic narratives, which are dominating, you know, and I’ll even give an example of, corporations have rights in the court of law, but nature does not, you know?

[00:22:07] And so these are the things from somewhat of an early age like undergrad i, I started, you know, thinking about, um, went on to study in grad school, a more interdisciplinary focus area at the University of South Carolina. Had an amazing thesis advisor. I’ll shout out Brian Helmuth, who’s now at Northeastern in Boston.

[00:22:28] He and I are still in close touch. Um, but he was the, uh, you know, the marine science professor there and I got to work in his lab and my big thing was marine protected areas and, you know, how do we develop these underwater parks to safeguard resources, protect fisheries. Um, and then kind of went on to do a long line of ocean conservation work, including at Environmental Defense Fund in dc, Mission Blue with, um, Dr. Sylvia Earl. And this was all before, you know, I went on to work at, at Break Free from Plastic, which I, I kind of found my people there. I really did. And, you know, taking a, a very much movement forward social justice approach to the work.

Shilpi finds her people
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[00:23:12] Suki Wessling: Mm-hmm. Can you explain that? Who, who are your people? And, and when you say social justice and, and environment, explain where that comes from. What, what the impetus is and how it’s different from, say, traditional environmentalism.

[00:23:28] Shilpi Chhotray: Sure. So Break Free From Plastic um, as I mentioned a couple times now, uh, the headquarters are in Manila, Philippines, so that already is very different from the Big Greens. They are all founded, you know, here in the United States. It’s DC, it’s New York, some San Francisco. Um, and so the values of organizations centered in the global south are much more community focused. They’re more almost like co-op-y focused. You’re sharing resources, you’re sharing strategies. There’s not a lot of gatekeeping. Um, everything is is sort of for the, the greater cause of, of the community. So we, you know, I really got skilled up on that kind of dialogue. Also, my first day of the job was flying to Bali, Indonesia and meeting with like 200 activists that a lot of them were from the global south. A lot of them were from India and I’m Indian. So like for me, often being the only person of color in the room, I, that’s what I mean by I found my people I really like, literally other Indians, Indonesians, Thai, Filipinos, you know, there’s South Americans there, lots of incredible folks from Europe and the US as well. And that’s, I, it’s like I had never felt my cup so filled up in my life at that point, and I just gave everything to that role. Um, and I’m, like I said, I’m still very connected to to folks there. Now they’re some of my, my best friends even still.

Environmentalism and equity
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[00:25:02] Suki Wessling: Let’s talk a little bit about the concept of intertwining environmentalism, which, you know, the roots of it was very much just save nature. Um, when you look at the early environmentalism, it didn’t talk about people and how equity issues might come into it. So talk about the sort of foundation of what you do to explain to anyone who doesn’t know why you would do this.

[00:25:30] Shilpi Chhotray: Yeah, I mean, I have massive concerns with the conservation movement as it is because as we’ve set up already, they’re leaving the people part out of it and to be extremely explicit, they’re leaving the indigenous people out, that they’ve literally kicked out to have a conservation movement. The conservation movement was inherently racist the way it was set up. I mean, you can’t, you know, protect land from the people that have stewarded it from generations and expel them from it. Um, so the entire way, the foundation of, you know, conservation and protecting the environment is, is really flawed and I think it’s done us a disservice of how we teach it in the education systems, even how I learned about it in undergrad until that program to Australia.

[00:26:17] Right. Um, we’re also still, you know, super hyper-focused on technological fixes, um, and policy wins that don’t address systemic solutions. And this is foundationally because of the people that are running the so-called conservation movement. Um, you know, I am not alone in this. And the only reason we exist is because of all of the incredible, mostly people of color, indigenous voices that, um, have allowed for a platform like Counter Stream to exist.

[00:26:48] They’re have pioneered in, in all sectors of the environmental work, whether it’s law, policy, science, um, really dismantling how we think about conservation and really centering the people that have been most impacted. And ironically the ones that have been pushed out of the conversation. I think quite deliberately, I think this has been intentional because when you hear these stories, when you hear these people’s perspectives, they have to change this dominant status quo of the discourse. And people don’t wanna do that. They wanna stay comfortable. And so we’re constantly challenging that because, um, if we’re, if we’re not, we’re missing the whole point of how we’re going to build a better future.

[00:27:29] Voiceover: You are listening to the Babblery and we’re speaking with environmentalist Shilpi Chhotray. She is using a new podcast, a People’s Climate, to assert the power of storytelling in order to reach people about climate issues and social justice.

[00:27:42] Shilpi Chhotray: So one of the stories that we cover on A People’s Climate this season is the story of Elizabeth Yeampierre and the organization Uprose in Brooklyn. So this is an organization that Elizabeth leads, it’s the oldest Latino organization, um, in the Brooklyn area, and she’s been working on environmental justice issues for like 40 plus years maybe, maybe even more. Um, and her neighborhood in Brooklyn is surrounded by industrial pollution. Her parents both died of environmental health issues. She herself has had, um, increased, you know, health concerns from breathing in the pollution of these nearby facilities. You know, one of the stories that kind of shook me when we were on the, in conversation for the podcast, and I don’t wanna give too much away ’cause I want people to tune in, but she said one of her neighbors, you know, checks on her kids in the middle of the night to make sure they’re still breathing. And it’s not, it’s not because they were born with asthma, it’s because of the, the pollutants, their breathing in and out, um, of their Brooklyn window, right?

[00:28:51] So there’s a lot at stake here when we talk about climate is just carbon and not talking about public health or social justice. We’re leaving a lot of people behind. And I wanted to give Elizabeth’s example for your listeners because she also has the solutions. Her organization led a very successful solar microgrid project, which is going to supply 200 businesses and homes with renewable clean energy. And it’s also providing jobs. So that’s, you know, that whole section when we talk about just transition, it’s again, we’re not leaving people behind on, on the jobs. Um, but it’s, it’s really imperative that organizations policy makers, even scientists, are centering people like Elizabeth. So she can also drive these solutions forward and we can scale them in, in other cities and towns in the country.

[00:29:48] Suki Wessling: So getting back to the idea of storytelling, why do people respond to storytelling? And one of the things that, you know, we, we’ve had a lot of self-reflection in the US after the last election, especially on the left, as far as why aren’t they getting, getting their message out. And a lot of the. Response has been that people respond to stories, they don’t respond to facts. So can you talk a little bit about storytelling? I mean, clearly this is sort of you, you’re an environmentalist, but it seems like storytelling is even more fundamental. You could have been fascinated by anything and still have been a storyteller. What is it about storytelling?

[00:30:28] Shilpi Chhotray: We’re not going to move the needle without stories. We’ve seen the facts and figures since, you know, they’ve been starting to come out since 2007, and in fact, it’s gotten worse, right. So I don’t think facts alone are going to save us. I use facts and data, of course, to use as research, and I drop them in strategically, you know, to paint a more full picture.

[00:30:50] Uh, but without the stories, we’re not humanizing what’s going on. I think, you know, people have the incredible ability to shape culture and policy when they have the megaphone for their voices to be heard. And I, I’ve seen this time and time again. One example I’d love to share that I, I was really moved by is I had a chance to speak with, um, representative Justin J. Pearson, who’s, um one of the youngest state representatives in the country, he’s representing the state of Tennessee. And when we think about like ai, I would just exercise this for, for the audience. It’s like. What do you think of it’s, you can’t miss it. You know, you drive down any highway and there’s like three billboards about ai.

[00:31:39] Um, we’re not really sure, like, should we be concerned? You know, we’re all using it for the most part. Is it going to save health? Is it going to save democracy? There’s a whole nother story to that. Ai, no matter where you stand on what it’s doing to society, and I do have strong thoughts there as a mother, it is incredibly polluting for communities, um, representative Pearson is from South Memphis. It’s where Elon’s massive new data center is polluting more than the airport, yet permits were fast tracked with almost no environmental review. It also takes about a million gallons of fresh water a day. You know, so it’s, it’s really harmful when you use fresh water like that.

[00:32:24] You’re also contaminating groundwater in the aquifer systems, and he has seen how corporations and capitalistic systems have bulldozed through his community before and he’s, he’s not going to let that happen. I mean, we do have to talk about the insane amount of power these tech billionaires have over people’s lives. I don’t think we’re talking about that enough. That needs to be synonymous with any time we’re talking about ai and we do that by using human-centered stories, right? So we’re, you know, getting really deep, um. On the different intersections with Representative Pearson’s story on democracy and the subversions of, of corporate influence, and of course the insane environmental injustice issues that comes with it.

[00:33:14] And by telling his story, he was reclaiming the narrative, that communities, not corporations should decide what happens to the air water and future. And I don’t think you can argue with that,

[00:33:25] Suki Wessling: Well, people do.

[00:33:26] Shilpi Chhotray: that people do. You’ll

[00:33:29] Suki Wessling: going to say, just going to say, I know people do, the Supreme Court would have something to say to you about that,

[00:33:34] Shilpi Chhotray: That’s true.

[00:33:35] Suki Wessling: at

[00:33:35] Shilpi Chhotray: least some of the members.

[00:33:37] A lot the members. Yeah. And the, and this is like, this is where the storytelling, the coalition building and the policymaking all comes together. So NAACP, The Southern Environmental Law Center and some other prominent organizations are going to be suing, um, Elon Musk for, for these gas turbines again, that weren’t even permitted.

[00:33:58] Voiceover: I asked Shilpi about why she feels that the Nation is a partner she and her team trust to bring their story to a wider public.

[00:34:05] Shilpi Chhotray: This partnership with the Nation is really compelling for us ’cause it’s an audience we really value. They’re politically leaning, they’re, you know, very intelligent, and I think the Nation has done an incredible job on how they cover certain issues on climate and environment. And us coming in with like a climate justice focus is, is going to be super strategic. Would we have partnered with. I’ll just, I don’t, I don’t wanna throw anyone un under the bus in terms of media, but I think like our partnership with the Nation was very specific. I will just say that. There’s very, very few media entities we would consider partnering with. I don’t know if that answers your question, but I think the more we understand our audience, the more we can kind of tailor the the messaging to, even to the headline. You know, sometimes people will read the headline and that’s it.

[00:34:59] They won’t even read the article. Um,

The movable middle
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[00:35:02] Suki Wessling: Which is dangerous because headline writers write headlines to get attention, not to give you information. It’s just amazing the amount of headlines I read that really don’t encapsulate what, what it’s about, you know? But it’s just interesting to me, um, you’re, you’re trying to reach an audience of people who are interested, but perhaps not as knowledgeable as you’d like them to be. How would you describe who you want to reach?

[00:35:30] Shilpi Chhotray: We have a couple different audiences we’re trying to reach. I mean, first and foremost, we want our frontline folks and our grassroots folks, our community organizers, to know that you are seen, you know, this is a resource for you. Let’s be in community with each other. That’s first and foremost. The second is sort of this movable middle, and I’m, I’m stealing a line from my amazing PR partner, Eric Kaplan.

[00:35:55] So he’s listening. Hi Eric. Um, but he talks a lot about the movable middle and it’s like you know, I can be pretty cutthroat on some of my messaging ’cause what I, um, what I feel inside isn’t always what I should be saying though. And that’s, you know, understanding the movable middle. I think there’s a lot of, lot of power there if you’re able to influence them.

[00:36:17] And what our stories do is they’re so humanized. A lot of my guests is like, okay, this person reminds me of my auntie. This person reminds me of my niece, of my grandmother, my father. How can I not care what they’re saying? This could be my family, this could be my, my friend. You know, I really feel like this is the sort of, um deep, intimate storytelling our guests are, are bringing to the table, which you can’t really look away from once you’ve heard it. So there’s that movable middle. And then for, um, me, just as you know, somebody that understands the power of policy when it’s done right, we want decision makers to also be tuning in and know that we’re not going anywhere. You know, you have to center the people of the global majority, not just the 1%.

[00:37:03] Voiceover: You are listening to the Babblery’s interview with climate justice activist Shilpi Chhotray.

[00:37:09] Shilpi Chhotray: We have to think more systemically and also think beyond our individual homes and our individual family and like move towards more of a collective action mentality. We’re still very much so in our bubbles and we need to understand what is impacting folks, you know, on the other side of the community or, or in the Gulf South. You know, inherently we are all connected.

[00:37:41] Voiceover: We’ll be right back.

[00:37:46] Suki Wessling: Hi, everyone. Suki here. The Babblery is a labor of love, love for good conversation, love for community radio, and love for the free exchange of ideas. But although all the ideas I give here are free, life costs money. So I just wanted to let you know a few ways you can support the radio you love. First of all, support your local community radio station. Mine can be found@ksqd.org.

[00:38:10] I support KSQD through small donations and huge amounts of time that I happily give them to support streaming content and technology. Getting involved in community radio has changed my life and it can change yours, too. You may have read about the huge hit small stations have taken with the loss of federal funding. Hardest hit are tribal and rural stations whose listeners aren’t able to make up the difference. Your contribution to a small station is immensely important. Please look for one that needs your help.

[00:38:39] You can also support the Babblery and read some fun stuff by subscribing to babblery.substack.com, and of course, commenting and interacting on Substack or your favorite podcast platform helps the Babblery reach more listeners.

[00:38:53] We’ll return to our episode after the break.

[00:38:56]

Segment 3: Where we are now and where we’re going
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[00:39:45] Voiceover: This is your host, Suki Wessling. It’s a hard time to be an environmentalist. Really it’s a hard time to be anyone who has been working for progressive change who believes the work of humans is to solve problems so that all of us benefit. Shilpi Chhotray is doing her part with her new podcast, and that’s her work. But I wanted to explore with her what it’s like to be someone like her whose work is so invested in progress, now seeing all this regression.

[00:40:13] Suki Wessling: We are in an incredibly challenging time that I don’t know if you’re like me, but it’s not what I would’ve predicted in 2021 because I felt like we had this blip. We and I understand backlash. I mean, anyone who’s, you know, my age and has gone through the third wave of feminism and then the backlash and seeing, backlash in every area of social justice. Every time there’s two steps forward, there’s some sort of push backward. Um. I didn’t expect this. So talk a little bit about what it’s like in this time. I just read a piece today that says, don’t call it the Trump era, by someone who wrote a book about the head, the Trump era in the title. Um,

[00:41:09] Shilpi Chhotray: should we call it?

[00:41:10] Suki Wessling: well, I think his point was, don’t center

[00:41:13] Shilpi Chhotray: this person. Oh,

[00:41:15] Suki Wessling: center what is happening now, and you know, so what is happening now? How, how are you looking at where we are and, and how do you feel about it? First of all.

Building the movement
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[00:41:27] Shilpi Chhotray: I mean, every day seems to be another hurdle. Um, I’m extremely involved in palestinian solidarity movement. And for me, my, my top of mind is there every second of the day. Um. We can’t disconnect what’s happening on our own soil without thinking about what this empire is doing to the most vulnerable populations.

[00:41:52] And so my heart is there beating every second of the day, really. Uh, it’s hard for me to think about anything else without that lens. When I talk to people that I really, really respect, they’re like, we should be seeing everything through the lens of Palestine because it’s such, it’s showing all of the almost the hypocrisy of the democratic system we thought existed. So I’ll, I’ll say that I, I will also say, one of the conversations I had on the show has really helped shape how I think about this moment, and we do talk a lot about Palestine, um, but I, I had an, the absolute honor and privilege to chat with Patrisse Cullors, who’s the co-founder of Black Lives Matter.

[00:42:33] Um, and I was so excited to talk to her because her book in 20 to 18, it’s called, When They Call You A Terrorist, really changed the course of my career. So being able to actually then talk to her in a video chat was like, so exciting. Uh, but what she said, Suki, was sort of what you were saying is like, this shouldn’t come to a surprise to any of us. We are in the insane backlash of Obama being president. We are in the backlash of the Me Too movement. We are in the backlash of an immigrant s’ right movement that says we matter. No, we’re in the backlash of, um, the climate justice movement growing.

[00:43:13] So we shouldn’t be surprised, but we need to be prepared.

[00:43:16] Voiceover: Here’s what Patrisse Cullors said during the interview about building movements.

[00:43:20] Patrisse Cullors: Especially where we’re at right now with these issues of racism and environmental crisis, we can’t afford to separate them. And that looks like getting different types of people together that work on different types of things to be in coalition together. I think the more that we try to silo ourselves, the less we’re gonna get done. Look at this administration and how effective it’s been at going after everybody. Women’s rights, trans folks, uh, the environment, black folks, scientists, artists, immigrants, undocumented people, I mean, you name it. They have created an infrastructure of chaos. And inside of that infrastructure of chaos they have Project 2025. That is their strategy. And it wasn’t just one thing they were gonna try to undermine and topple, it was all the things that they believed were part of their strategy and their value set.

[00:44:28] Us a US. A usa. Usa. Where’s ours?

[00:44:33] Shilpi Chhotray: For her, and I agree with her, like, mass mobilization of movements is, is where it needs to be at. And that seems to be a theme throughout the show, is people power. It’s grassroots organizing, it’s showing up for each other, you know, so she and I have this cool conversation about what she calls the science behind movements, and that’s why I had her on the show is like really break down what it took to lead, co-lead, probably the most expansive, mass mobilization in history, you know. And she has a lot of hope for the future. She also talks a lot about the role of culture workers and artists in this time. And that has been a thread throughout a number of our guests in just like finding pieces and places of joy and, and resistance through art and expression. And I think there’s something really powerful to be said there as well. Um, but yeah, of course I’m, I’m concerned. I’m co I’m concerned for, what, kind of what’s at stake here and just from an environmental perspective. So much good work has been undone, um, by colleagues that are much more senior than me, that I look up to in the environmental justice movement, but also the environmental movement at large. You know, lots of my colleagues have lost jobs, lost, you know, years and years of bodies of work that have contributed to incredible research. So how do we navigate this time is, is, I think we’re really looking at each other and, and finding community is, is so important and I really hope A People’s Climate can be that resource for the broader community it has for me and in in our team.

Identifying the steps backward and how to move forward
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[00:46:19]

[00:46:19] Voiceover: Talking about environmentalism and social justice right now can be downright distressing, but Shilpi Chhotray in her work with a People’s Climate Podcast and in her larger work in the movement has to look forward. I asked her to identify some steps backward we’ve taken lately and what will have to be done to move forward again.

[00:46:38] Suki Wessling: We talked about Katrina, so I’ll just start there. So the Federal Emergency Management Agency is also known as fema. It’s um, it has had issues, I’m not going to say it’s been perfect. It’s had lots of issues in the past. There’s been a lot of, um, particularly environmental justice critiques, um, on the, in adequacies and bureaucracies in the system when it comes to disaster relief.

[00:47:01] Shilpi Chhotray: But gutting the entire agency is not the solution, and that’s what’s happened. So many people have been left, let go, the focus on environmental justice has been completely undone. This is all in time for hurricane season. So people are really scared right now. Um, and this is where, like that toolkit I mentioned, Power in the Storm is, you know, our attempt to resource communities knowing that FEMA probably won’t exist, you know, by the end of the year.

[00:47:30] So that’s just one example. There is also an environmental justice office that took decades in the making in the White House that was led by number of indigenous folks, black folks, you know, Latinx folks, that has been completely dismantled. And we’re just seeing a complete bulldozing of federal regulations when it comes to industry. And the Environmental Protection Agency, much like FEMA has already had, you know, we’ve been very vocal about how they could have done much better when it comes to industry instead of just giving them permits left and right. You know, we need to really cap production and, and say, no more fossil fuels. Not necessarily, um, just giving them, you know, carte blanche ability to pollute.

[00:48:13] And so we’re seeing that now. We’re seeing a total overhaul of these rules and regulations and communities that needed those safeguards the most.

[00:48:22] Suki Wessling: Yeah. Um, you’re, you’re talking and I’m just going, oh.

[00:48:25] Shilpi Chhotray: It’s heavy. I mean, and then this is, and just to say there are solutions in terms of like, I gave the Representative Pearson example. Okay. You came in with 35 gas turbines with no permits. We know we can take legal action. So like I, I also think, you know, groups like Earthjustice are just doing an incredible job.

[00:48:47] Those organizations that are, um, they have the legal power, it’s so important to support groups like that as well. And I, I say Earth Justice in particular ’cause my co-founder, Patrice Sims is, is the VP of litigation there, so I know that work very well. And, um, that’s what we need right now. You know, we need, we need legal precedents and, and legal action.

[00:49:11] Suki Wessling: And given that we have backsliding at the federal level, how can people who were focused on what’s happening federally, how can they refocus? What, what can they do as far as say, their state and local governments that’s effective?

[00:49:28] Shilpi Chhotray: I always feel like local is where it’s at, because this is actually how the pipeline to federal works, right? You have to be immersed in your local efforts, your local policies. I mean, a lot of people don’t even know who their state representatives are, so it’s like that’s a starting point. You know? It’s, it’s important that we’re participating in in local and regional electoral work, not just federal. And you know, because of the success of, we’re seeing increased participation in, in local work through a lot of the grassroots and, uh, movement spaces. And there’s been a push more for like community powered utilities, community powered solar projects, just like I I mentioned earlier in Uprose.

[00:50:14] And so there is important, like, economic and climate justice intersections that can come at play here and like supporting politicians and policy makers that understand those intersections. One of my, um, favorite people in the world is, is Ms. Sharon Levigne, who is such a huge reason we started People over Plastic and in Counter Stream.

[00:50:36] She’s the founder of Rise St. James and has defeated the $9 billion plastics, uh, plastics plant called Formosa Plastic from coming into her community in Cancer Alley, which is in Louisiana. But she always says to me, you know, it’s not enough to get folks out, get, these complicit folks out that are in bed with industry.

[00:50:59] It’s getting those right people in, and that starts at, at the community level. So I just kind of hear her in the background right now being like, this is, this is really important to, to get people to understand. And then how do we be an allyship in communities that the voter suppression issues that we don’t necessarily have in California?

[00:51:20] You know, like focus on the solidarity building across states. Like Representative Pearson said, you know, he’s in Memphis, Tennessee. One of his biggest allies was a community group in Oregon who was able to, you know, share resources and, help advance what, what they’re doing in Memphis. So I thought that was really cool.

How can we all take part in the environmental movement?
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[00:51:38] Suki Wessling: And outside of politics, if you’re just talking to someone, you mentioned the moms that you got to know and how surprised you were at how little of the environmental messaging comes down to people who are otherwise, you know, you would think that they’d be informed. Um, What sort of things do you think are really important for everyday people to be focusing on in their own lives as far as, um, environmental solutions and living a less destructive lifestyle?

[00:52:10] Shilpi Chhotray: Well for me, and I think, you know, folks will have different answers to that, but we have to think more systemically and also think beyond our individual homes and our individual family and like move towards more of a collective action mentality. I think people have become, you know, it might have been COVID, but we’re still very much so in our bubbles and we need to understand what is impacting folks, you know, on the other side of the community or, or in the Gulf South. You know, inherently we are all connected. So that’s something that I can give a couple examples, especially with the plastic pollution work, is for so long it has been this lifestyle campaign focused on the individual consumer.

[00:53:00] And of course, we all know, if, if you are not living under a rock, you know we have a plastic pollution crisis. There’s no excuse. We have to go beyond skipping the straw or bringing our clean canteen. Okay? There is waste being shipped to other countries of the world being openly dumped and burned. That’s still our planet, you know, this is, we are all part of the same ecosystem. So again, thinking systemically around, it’s the corporate accountability, it’s the oil and gas connection. Um, I don’t want what’s happening in my curbside in Oakland getting picked up and dumped to Indonesia. Then say something to your, your local policy makers.

[00:53:41] You know, talk to your recycling companies and let them know this is, this is not okay. Uh, there’s, there’s a role to play, um, across various issue areas. I thought I’d give plastic kind of as one example ’cause it touches so many other, pieces. Again, on the policy piece, I get really frustrated when I see massive headlines being celebrated, like, okay, we’ve banned the bag in this place. Okay, well what about the straw? The fork? The cutlery, the styrofoam, the plastic clothing? Right?

[00:54:12] Suki Wessling: And what about those so-called reusable bags that they give you that are useless? I mean, I don’t, I don’t take them because I either just carry this stuff out without a bag or I bring my own bag everywhere. but still.

[00:54:23] Getting back to what I said about all of us being so distracted by our lifestyle, by technology, by all of the demands and our time, we don’t think very creatively about the most basic aspects of our lives. You know, do we have to use straws? So, you know, just sort of the, storytelling to ourselves maybe? Reminding ourselves that we can do these little things, even though, you know, because I feel like right now there’s this sort of push to discourage people from thinking that the little things help, but of course little things, the

[00:54:55] Shilpi Chhotray: do,

[00:54:56] Suki Wessling: medium size things and the big things, they all are necessary at

[00:54:59] Shilpi Chhotray: and thinking about it all together should be helpful, not more stressful, like having the knowledge is actually really empowering.

[00:55:08]

The future for children
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[00:55:08] Suki Wessling: So one last question. You have small children, they have long lives ahead of them. Where do you hope we will be when they are adults moving into their adult lives?

[00:55:21] Shilpi Chhotray: I would hope for two very empathetic boys. I can’t control what happens in the world. I don’t even wanna think about that. But if I can raise these kids with empathy at the core, I think they’re going to be okay.

[00:55:44] Voiceover: Thanks to Shilpi Chhotray for sharing her life, perspective, and work with me. You can learn more in the show notes for this episode and at counterstream.org. Thanks to the People’s Climate Team for allowing me to feature their impressive sound design. The song Carbon Neutral Barbecue is by Steviasphere and the song Fire Next Time is by Melissa Laveaux. You can find both artists on Band Camp. Thanks for listening.

 

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